Curse

Theramoe · Sep 03, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

i recently picked up GW, played lots of different online RGP, but for different reasons been late on this title.
Game is beautiful, fun, interesting story, and with a major flaw. You cant sell your precious little items unless you have time to sit in a town and shout for hours.
this is 1990 style, not 2000+...
I cannot belive i cant put up a little shop, set a price and go to bed hoping for a nice little sell and money in my inventory...

For those of you who played RYL, that was probably the easiest shop style. hit button shop, name your store (eg. greens and golds, dyes, runes, etc..) drag the item to shop, set price and finished, had room for 24 items.
Check in after a few hours, add to the shop spaces that were opened up after something had sold, and afk again.

I wanna play and quest, not cry in towns.

This game could have been a 6/6, but without a proper trade solution is barely 4/6. This is what needs to be worked on, and shouldnt even take a week to implement.

hopefully it will be fixed soon..

Theramoe

Hawkeye · Sep 03, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

And how exactly would you suggest that the players see these shops? It'd have to be something rather abstract, to say the least. The map for the towns obviously can't be dynamic and stretch and change according to the shops, so some npc is going to have to have a listing of all 'shops'. The list would probably be extensive. Just like you don't want to cry in towns, I don't really feel like going through 1000s of shops in hopes to find one that sells what I want. That in of itself would be 10 times more tedious.

I think you need to rethink this idea a bit.

bilateralrope · Sep 03, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

And how exactly would you suggest that the players see these shops? It'd have to be something rather abstract, to say the least. The map for the towns obviously can't be dynamic and stretch and change according to the shops, so some npc is going to have to have a listing of all 'shops'. The list would probably be extensive. Just like you don't want to cry in towns, I don't really feel like going through 1000s of shops in hopes to find one that sells what I want. That in of itself would be 10 times more tedious.

I think you need to rethink this idea a bit.

See this suggestion which gets around that problem by listing the stores in the party search window. We were even able to come up with a rudimentary search system by using auto-generated store titles without going over the party search windows character limit.

Theramoe · Sep 04, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

the simplest form of a shop is just the player and a chat bubble on top of his/her head. You dont need a designated building for that, but offcourse one could designate a few towns for that is you dont like to see some hundred players with a bubble on the head.
i rather have the option to check playershops then to "cry" in tradechannel.

I really have no idea how this game has been around for so long without this issue beeing solved, and with a fresh expansion out it isnt propably even on the agenda.

With shop instalment i would continue playing all the other campaigns, but as it is now, it isnt cutting the cake for me. I am sure i am not the only one feeling like this, and to fix it wouldnt be very difficult.

One can check all other online RPG, use the system that is easiest to code, and easily implement it.

Theramoe

Terra Xin · Sep 04, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

A lot of people are skeptical when this kind of idea comes up, because it can attract a lot of bot activity, which is very popular in GuildWars. I wouldn't consider this idea because it doesn't fit with the idea of the game, but then I don't know what else to suggest so I can't really say much for myself. :S

Hawkeye · Sep 04, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

The bubble idea is a possibility, though I'm strongly against the idea of being able to set a 'shop' and forget about it. That would lead to a huge spamming of shops, which would either be way too much text for a user to see in a town at any given point, or it would be way too much clutter for an npc to show.

Hyper.nl · Sep 04, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

It has already been suggested many times but still not here. For me AFK shops are THE solution for the buying/selling problem. Way better than an auction house like WoW has.

So I still hope ANet will allow us to set up AFK shops.

Phoenix Tears · Sep 05, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

signed:

Im also for this, old mmorpgs like Ragnarok online show it ever again, that these kind of selling is the simplest and best ...

the only problems of this kind are following 2:

stupid botters which put all their characters at 1 spot AFK selling
Solution: is still GW implemented by max amounts of players per district, set max number a bit lesser, make more districs, > shop districs and then with the new rule, that players have to make their shps in shop districs, shops in normal districs will result in a direct ban, when they get announced to the support.
Solution 2: give us players finally a merchant like class > the blacksmiths and the alchemists would be 2 awesome merch classes.
Shit on this stupid self slavery of implementing only classes, that fit to a certain theme of culture -.- just implement classes, that would basically fit to the game and the time age of GW we play in.
Lots of classical classes are missing in GW T.T whihc could be theoretically part of the core classes (rogue, blacksmith/alchemist, bard/dancer) which are only some examples of classses that could exist in all 3 campaigns as core class, but Anet is on this "we must be extra ordinary and unique" since nictfall with their wannabe god- and wannabe angel classes Dervish and Paragon (from what last on is only a stupid thought out name for a class, Dervishs at least exist in Real Life, why couldnt paragons don't be just simple Hunters with Spears and dervishs get no other abilities, then transforming into god avatars, which lets the whole class look like a powergaming class and more special then every other class)

Imo Anet must learn, that they can still learn from older MMORPG's and their features, there exist even free MMORPG's like RAPPELZ, Anet can learn from in kind of interestign features, graphics and so on...
WoW is not the only MMORPG beneath GW on the world, there are lots others with lots of good feature from which i'd love to see certain some in GW too somehow in a GW own version of it.

In kind of afk shops, for me personally the old ragnarok online is still ever the best refference, but RO brigns me to the 2nd problem, that would occur, when GW changes to afk shops with nice new merch classes:

2nd problem: stupid braindead players, which think ,they can sell every shit for millions of ingame money, because something is so "rare"
When afk shops come, the solution must be too, that GW's max sum of money, that players should/could pay then is 100 Platin, more not.
With this way, huge inflaton of money won't exist ingame then.
When no player can want for any dumb shit like 3 million gold, the game will run further fine with changing to afk shops.

Nyktos · Sep 05, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Use the Sell forum?

bilateralrope · Sep 05, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

It has already been suggested many times but still not here. For me AFK shops are THE solution for the buying/selling problem. Way better than an auction house like WoW has.

So I still hope ANet will allow us to set up AFK shops.

What is so good about the AFK shop solution compared to an auction house ?

I don't see anything present in either system that will move the prices away from what supply and demand dictate. However an AFK shop requires the seller to research on what price he should sell his item at while an auction house does not because it lets the buyers bid the price up to the market value. So the AFK stalls allow players to leach off players who put items up cheaply because they don't know the market, while an auction house does not because the price will get bid up to market value.

Then we have a problem that will be unique to Guild Wars in the sheer number of stalls running at any one time. Most MMO's are separated into different shards/servers/realms/etc where players can only interact with players on their shard. On another forum I asked how many players each MMO had per shard. Of the ones we could find data for Eve Online (and Eve doesn't have AFK stalls) had the top with about 20k-30k concurrent users and about 120k active accounts, and no other games coming close. Ignoring WOW because it doesn't have AFK shops, we get to FFXI with 500'000+ active accounts (source) and 12 shards according to one person in the thread linked above, thus giving about 42'000 active players on each shard.

For Guild Wars because of the instancing we don't have separate shards, so any decent market change will let everyone trade with each other. I'm only aware of 2 pieces of data about the number of active accounts:
- 4 million copies sold before GW:EN went on sale.
- An alleged (meaning I haven't seen any proof she said it) statement by Gaile Grey saying that if everyone earns one max title a year we will have permanent favor. Since there are 60*24*365 = 525600 minutes in a year and each max title gives 3 minutes of favor this means 175'200 accounts as a lower limit (Gaile's statement only becomes false with a smaller number, we can't rule out larger numbers.). 4 times that of FFXI at the minimum.

So if FFXI uses AFK shop then we will be looking at a market with at least 4 times as many players as FFXI uses. So does FFXI have an AFK shop system, and if yes how long does it take to browse through it when you are either trying to decide your price or looking for an item ?

Though all this is pretty irrelevant to GW as the difficulty in building the auction house is making the searchable item database for it, so an auction house is unlikely. So AFK shops are an acceptable compromise.

bilateralrope · Sep 05, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

signed:

Im also for this, old mmorpgs like Ragnarok online show it ever again, that these kind of selling is the simplest and best ...

the only problems of this kind are following 2:

stupid botters which put all their characters at 1 spot AFK selling

I've got a better solution to your one. ANET makes one town specifically for these stores, and the stores can only be placed within this town. Each district of this town has spots specified as places where a stall can be placed and only one store can be placed in each spot. The spots will be arranged so that you can traverse through them easily (say all in a line, with the town warp-in point at one end) and possibly in conjunction with the town architecture (such as a stall front behind which the seller stands). Attempting to place a stall elsewhere will either fail, or get your character moved to a nearby location where the store can be placed.

This also allows ANET to have the store locations automatically shuffled around to reduce the number of districts taken up by the stores, thus decreasing how long it takes to search through them.

As for a merchant class, that would mean we have to use one of our limited character slots for trading only, thus making them a bad idea.

Quote:

2nd problem: stupid braindead players, which think ,they can sell every shit for millions of ingame money, because something is so "rare"
When afk shops come, the solution must be too, that GW's max sum of money, that players should/could pay then is 100 Platin, more not.
With this way, huge inflaton of money won't exist ingame then.
When no player can want for any dumb shit like 3 million gold, the game will run further fine with changing to afk shops.

So the stupid players will just charge 100k for their useless items instead and the players with items that are actually worth over 100k can't use the stores. So you don't solve the problem while creating another at the same time. A better solution would be some way for them to see what kind of price they can expect to sell the item for.

Another possible solution would be to first allow people to run the stores while either offline or doing something else (all the store really needs is a pointer to the sellers inventory so the server knows where to look, so I can't see any reason to force players to be AFK at the store). Then instead of the seller setting the sale price, they instead set a minimum price and duration let the potential buyers bid the price up to the market price. Then once the auction ends the trade happens automatically. Remember the reason we aren't getting an auction house is because of trouble with making the item database for it. If we are willing to do without a search function then the auctions should still be viable. While this won't do much to stop some people, the fact people can set a low price and not run the risk of losing out on its value will prevent a lot of people setting uninformed prices.

For instance with the guru auctions I always set a 1k min bid regardless of what I think the item is worth because I know that the item will be sold at the best price I can get from the auction as long as the min bid is less than or equal to that price.

Nightmare_Pwner · Sep 05, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

From Reading what everyone else has said it looks like you cant really come up with a way of so called "AFK selling Shops and Trade Districts Etc etc" But From Playing Other MMORPGS One of witch I think has the BEST AFK/Easy Trade Shop or Wat ever you want to call it Availiable is (EverQuest 2). Sure the Game it self sucks or not be your type of RPG game but I think it has one of the Best Ways of Selling and Finding stuff easy without walking into a Town and Seeing a Bunch of Bots or People with Chat Logs above their heads.

In case you Dont know Wat im Talking about Im Talking about Putting in a "Broker" NPC. Basicly You can Go to Any Broker NPC in Everquest 2 Click on a Seach Bar and Look under VERY Spesific Items you Want to Buy Right down to the Boosts/Buffs/Watever. After you Select what you want to buy and big List Comes up with all the Item/Items you Want and Locations of the Players Selling them. In Everquest People can Sell From their Owned House or w.e But Of course we dont have that in Guildwars so to Sovle that Problem, We Could just Put in Trade Districts as Mentioned Before.

For Example You go to a Main Place Ex. "Lions Arch" then You go into District Select and More Down the List would be Trade Districts you could go to 1-10 Etc etc and set up Shop/Watever. To Keep it So theirs No Spam or Anything else Unreqed. Stop chat All together you Would not Be Aloud to Talk. These So called "Trade Districts" Would just be an Area (Small Area. Almost go Effort Reqed there) where you go to Open Up your Trade Window Sitdown AFK and Let it go All night or watever. When youv Actually Set up your "Shop" And Sit down AFK or w.e The "Broker NPC" Would Automaticly Be Updated and Your Character's Name that your On Is Put Up on that Big List with a Tiny Discription Of wat your Selling. To Save Space Coding or w.e Else you Want to Call it Keep it to just One or So words for Ex. (I Want to Sell Green Swords) then When I set up Shop I would Just Type in "Green Swords" and thats all would be Displayed with your Name when a player Seaches for "Green Swords"

Sure Some of you will say that will Req Alot more Design Coding w.e Then GW has to Offer. But another Solution to this Problem just to Charge Money for this Inteligent Way for Selling. Sure Some people might complain and Bitch like Kids but you dont have to Charge That Much. Like its 10 bucks or w.e for a Fricken Char Slot. Charge like 6 or 7 for this Upgraded Way of Trading. If an Advanced and Inteligent New System Of Being able to Trade AFK or without having to Spam General/Trade Chat to Sell useless Crap you dont want was Availible Hell I would pay Full Price of a Whole Game for it.

Of Course This is Just the Outline of the Idea I could go Into Much Detail about it but Im lazy.

Reply of what ya Think of it So far.

bilateralrope · Sep 05, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Nightmare_Pwner that suggestion won't happen for the same reason we won't get an auction house, ANET has decided that building an item database that can support the searching that both require is too much work for them.

Also what is with your overuse of capital letters ?
It makes you sound like you have a stutter.

ember2inferno · Sep 05, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Oh yes, signed signed signed signed signed.

It's called "Party Search", you press P when in a town or outpost, a list of sellers pop up.

We already have a trade part for that, why not revolutionize it to a shop part? Yes yes.

bilateralrope · Sep 05, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightmare_Pwner

Hows that "too Much for them"

Do you know how the current data for Guild Wars is arranged on the server ?
Try reading here to get a basic idea. Basically it would mean that instead of bolting on some new parts to the current system they would have to make a completely new data system just for the auction house. Other MMO's have an easier time of adding an auction house because their internals are arranged in a way to make adding one much easier.

Quote:

I suggest you READ my whole Idea without just Skimming threw it before Saying a useless Comment like that.

You go to an NPC, tell it what search filter to apply, then it tells you which players are selling the items and where they are located. What did I miss ?

Quote:

And My ExSeSiVE uSE of CapS? Lol Thats NoT waT we are EvEn Talking About if I wanted to Talk about that Id make a Thread on IT.

(Mind My Spellling. And Dont Bitch like a Little Boy about it) Im Typing this While im Talking on Skype and Watching the News.... OooOh)

So you can't be bothered paying much attention to this thread or putting in the minimal effort required to make your posts easy to read. I think I'll let the mods decide if this is acceptable or not.

dragonofinfinity · Sep 05, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

The bubble idea is a possibility, though I'm strongly against the idea of being able to set a 'shop' and forget about it. That would lead to a huge spamming of shops, which would either be way too much text for a user to see in a town at any given point, or it would be way too much clutter for an npc to show.

this is what happens in FlyFF whn loads of people set up shops around an NPC (the bank person no less! very annoying) makeing it impossible to talk to them.

you could have a system simmilar to the search window, where others can view and buy without having to sit in one place for hours trying for your trade message not to get lost in someone spamming.
it would alow allow for fixed pricings of certain items.

something needs to be done about the trade system.
there just isnt enough space in the chat box for mass clearouts of storage and having to sit there for hours repeating the same message over and over is very annoying, especialy for a casual who would rarther be doing something else in game.

Phoenix Tears · Sep 05, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

@bila: don't tell me, that you think, blacksmiths or any merch class in general are worth it to be implemented into GW, cause you think, they can't fight ?

And come on, theres nothing wrong in it using one character slot for one characters, which is specially meant for doing all the selling work of stuff from your account. Making a merch character is never a waste of a slot, because inthe end, these characters will be ever the richest from all of your characters in your account and they are meant to be the money makers, thats the thing, what merches do ^^ make money (if people are willing to buy from you XD)

Ragnarok Online again has shown for ages, how to make nice blacksmiths/alchemists, which are the players money makers and are able to fight good.

it are 2 classes, which could bring new weapons to the wolrd of GW > 1H Hammers/2H Axes/2H Swords for the Blacksmith , Maces and Battle Staffs for the Alchemist.

With the Blacksmith the classes would receive a class, that would be pwnage in breaking enemy armors and that will be able to repair broken armors of allies (healing broken armors is really silly).
The Alchemist could brign the Homunculus System to Guild Wars, giving the Game a melee class like the ranger, which has 1 PET at his side, which are no animals, no it are then a special kind of monster, so GW would receive with Alchmists a kind of "Demon Summoner" thats missing in this game.

Homunculus would be ever at alchemists side, would cost no skill slot, has its own setted skills, which can't be changed and acts like a hero, but max level is 15. And getting an homunculus is harder the. 3rd merch like class woulds be the Seer (fortune teller), which would bring new gameplay system to gw with "fragrances", which work like well spells, only with the exception, that these effects need no dead corpse for working, and they would use magic of the sun, moon and stars, their weapon would be a magic staff or their crystal bal, which would be a "item weapon", so something that the character carries around like a quest item, or like the ritualists ash skills.
the fortune teller throws its crystal ball, which will do then little aoe splash damage lightnings, when it hits a foe.
Blacksmith imo belongs to the core classes, while alchemist/seer are more exotic.

AFK shops will ever be better, thna auction houses, because with houction houses the seller has EVER to wait, until the auctions end, before the trade gets done, with AFK shops, the seller needs only to wait, until someone boughts somethign and gets direct its cash cause through automatically done trades by system.
making a pure commerce town for this was my first thought, but then i changed my idea to Shop Districts, which are way better, because they can exists simple in every big town like Ascalon, Lion's Arc, Denravi, Droknar's, Rata Sum and so on and then have simple infinite districts for shops there.
But your idea with fixed spots for shops is a very nice addition, this will solve then, that places will not look overcrowded by shops. paths wil be free and place will be then empty enough, that players can smoothfully look around from shop to shop like as when being on a bazaar.

Making out of AFK Shops little auction houses is crap, sure, no search function must be made, but that is like creating millions of little personal data bases, which must be stored somewhere, this would bring the servers surely to explode XD cause of absolutely too much information, that must be saved over too long time.
When making AFK Shops, the server has automatically the chance to auto close an AFK shop, once everything got sold, what will let the server keep longer alive XD

It brings even alot more rpg flair to the game, when players could create their own AFK-Shops, when ur interested in playing a rpg of a merch chara ^^.
its simple more interestign and funny, then ever runnijg only to a dumb npc, which boughts all ur stuff only at very little money and you can make no commerce with npcs, you can make this only with other players and commerce about the price, when its to low/high for you.

However, in thing is clear:

as the commece system is now in GW1, it can't stay so, imo one of the horriblest trade system including its chat, ive ever seen in a MMO game

Div · Sep 05, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Not going to happen until GW2. No point as this has been suggested at least 100x in these forums already.

Search is your friend.